[rphil11ort]

I can tell you that the lease can be a nightmare if you want to sell the house. The buyers typically don't want the lease and in order to sell the home the lease has got to be paid off. I am in the Mortgage business and the last 2 houses that had solar leases the seller had to pay off over $26,000 in order to sell the house.

[garrykolb]

Here's an article I wrote recently for a Villages Facebook group on my solar journey.

Happy sunshine 🌞 Techday Tuesday, friendly folks!
Let's talk about sunshine - specifically solar power.

I recently went on a journey exploring adding solar power to Kolb Kastle, to reduce or eliminate my reliance on the power grid, and to be a little more environmental.

Let's preface this with the caveat that this isn't a happy story.

First, let's talk about how power is measured. Think about a 100W (Watt) lightbulb. When it is lit, it is drawing 100W from the grid. If you have ten bulbs lit, they will draw 1,000W from the grid. If you burn them for an entire hour, you will use 1,000Wh (Watt-hours), typically knows as a kilowatt-hour (kWh). Power companies bill you by the kWh. The total number of kWh you use each month is what you get billed for, at the rate (or rates) your power company charges. More on that in a minute.

Second, let's talk about how solar works in Florida. Florida works on a net metering principal. The power company installs a new bi-directional meter on your house when you get solar. The meter measures how much energy you draw from the grid as well as how much money your solar panels return to the grid. Florida requires that for-profit energy companies, like Duke, to do a 1:1 metering. That means that if you use 1kWh from the grid, and your solar panels produce and return 1kWh to the grid, they are required to purchase it from you at the same rate they charge you. So, if your solar panels produce as much energy each month that you use from the grid, your bill should net out at zero for the energy charges. Pretty cool, right?

I can't find exact costs, but Duke charges somewhere around $0.13 for each kWh a customer uses each month.
Enter SECO - the power company many of us use. SECO is not a for-profit company. They are a cooperative and not-for-profit. Generally, that's a good thing as their energy rates tend to be cheaper, and they are. SECO charges $0.1106 for the first 1,000kWh and $0.1306 for energy use above 1,000kWh each month. That's before their monthly "hotbucks" power cost adjustment. SECO credits customers back a variable amount per kWh based on that month's cost to produce energy. This month, that credit was $0.0282 per kWh. That means our energy costs are really pretty cheap.

Here's where that all kills the practicality of solar. First, cheap energy means that it will take longer to recover the cost of installing solar. Even with the current 26% federal income tax credit for installing solar, cheap energy takes a long time to recoup. Second, and this is the big one - SECO is not-for-profit and therefore doesn't have to play by the 1:1 net metering rules. Whatever energy you use from SECO gets billed to you at the current rate less the hotbucks credits. The energy you return to the grid from your solar panels gets credited to you at the wholesale rate of $0.095 per kWh. In addition, you get BILLED the current hotbucks rate for every kWh you return to the grid.

If you use 1,000kWh, you get billed $110.06 and credited $28.20 for a net cost of $81.86. If you produce 1,000kWh and return them to the grid, you get credited for $95.00 and billed for $28.20, resulting in a credit of $66.80. It gets worse if you use over 1,000kWh as you get billed at a higher rate and still credited back at the much lower rate.

What this all amounts to is that if you're a SECO customer using 900-1,500 kWh monthly, it will take you somewhere near 17 years to recover your investment for a solar system and still have a bill from SECO for energy.

Now, none of this takes into account any future increases in energy costs and the vendor's claims that adding solar will add 10%-20% to your home's value.

If you want to add storage batteries to power your home in the event of a power failure, it gets even worse as that nearly doubles the cost of a solar system.

For our home, a 2,004 square foot Juniper, a solar system was going to cost between $17,000-$25,000 after tax credits, and batteries would add another $10,000-$15,000.

And...SECO charges us a service fee of $1/day just for the privilege of being a SECO customer, and that won't go away. If we size-up the system to over-produce to make up for the difference in billing rates and also cover the monthly customer fee, the system would get so large that it jumps to what's called "tier 2" status and would require us to purchase a $500,000 umbrella insurance policy!

I am so disappointed.

When I started this journey, I was excited about the idea of being somewhat green and also recovering my investment in about nine years and then be making money like a madman, all compliments to the ample sunshine here in the sunshine state. After doing my research, I'm back to just using electricity from the grid just like everyone else.

Perhaps we'll see some changes in the near future to make solar more attractive, but for now, it's tough to make a financial argument for solar here in The Villages.

I'd really like to convert over, but I'm not willing to pay $30-$50 per month more to have solar.

[bruce213]

Our solar roof came on line November 2019, South facing side of our house. Our yearly 12 month energy bill before solar was $1,603.39. Our 12 month yearly bill after solar was $474.18. I went with a higher end 9.6kw system $19152.00 after rebate. So that gives me about a 17 years to a pay out. The solar company est a 13-14 pay back(with energy cost increases). My highest monthly bill was $70, the lowest $10.00. So you need to be on the younger side, concerned with the environment or hopefully both. If you decide to do it of course get several quotes and recommendations, and do lots of home work. Hope this helps if you want more info let me know.

[zendog3]

If you follow the science and understand that global warming is causing severe weather, wildfires, and sea level rise. You should consider solar. We are near, or at, break even on cost for electricity after installation. I didn't buy solar to save money, but because I have children and grandchildren and I am willing to "suffer" some to leave them a better world.

If your life has given you enough of the gold ring that you can afford to buy solar. Do it!

[TedfromGA]

Solar energy, renewable energy, and other technologies designed to be "green" need to be looked at carefully. Consistently, I see no mention of the natural resources required to manufacture the "green" product. Those solar panels are not produced without consuming natural resources. The inverters required to change the electricity into usable electricity for the home are full of electronic parts, etc.

In my view any discussion about using renewable energy: Solar, Wind, Water, etc. need to include the cost of manufacture in terms of natural resources consumed to make the product and install the product.

When the WHOLE picture is understood one will discover the net use of natural resources exceeds the net gain to make and use a "green" source of energy.

[retiredguy123]

Originally Posted by zendog3

If you follow the science and understand that global warming is causing severe weather, wildfires, and sea level rise. You should consider solar. We are near, or at, break even on cost for electricity after installation. I didn't buy solar to save money, but because I have children and grandchildren and I am willing to "suffer" some to leave them a better world.

If your life has given you enough of the gold ring that you can afford to buy solar. Do it!

Please explain the science of global warming. What does it mean when people say we have less than 10 years to fix the problem? Can I assume that is from the science? I don't see any viable plan to get other countries to change their energy habits. Why is the Government ending the energy tax credit for solar systems? And, why would anyone care about their children and grandchildren, if we only have 10 years? It is very difficult to take this stuff seriously. To me, when people say we only have 10 years, they lose credibility.

[Spikearoni]

Originally Posted by debron911

We learn from our mistakes!

Note: I am not an expert. These are my experiences as a consumer after going through the process, installation and ownership of a 7.3 kw Silfab 23 panel system with an Enphase microinverter.

#1. Did not do enough research before buying a system. SECO has a lot of good information on their website including the process to set up their interconnection agreement.
#2. To decide which contractors to contact , we didn’t know about: Florida Solar Energy Industries Association
This Florida association holds installers to a higher standard. Had we known before selecting a contractor we would have selected from these companies in the association
#3. If financial gain is your goal it probably is NOT in your best interest to proceed. Our first few bills (optimum sun exposure-17 panels facing south and 6 facing west) garnered us enough savings to make the $100 solar payment at 2.99% interest). So it was a wash. SECO charges $1 a day regardless of usage plus 10 cents per kwh. They buy back power from a system at the rate of 7.2 cents per kwh. You can do the math easily to see it is highly unlikely you can produce enough power to wipe out your bill. The system is designed to produce what your average consumption is before installing a system!
#4. Solar contractor was not honest in how “net metering “ is calculated. Nor did they explain that, as your system is producing power (during the day) your home uses that solar power and only takes power from the grid if your usage exceeds your production. Any excess produced goes back into the grid and you receive 7.2 cents per kwh as a credit on your monthly bill. Hence using your washer, dryer, dishwasher, hot water heater, etc during peak hours 10-4pm is recommended. NOTE: We learned this after installation from SECO’s solar department.
#5. In our area power is generally considered cheap compared to other areas of the country so the primary benefit of installing a system here is simply environmental.
#6. It took 10 weeks from contract sign date to installation. Another 3 weeks to correct issues that kept system from firing up. Building permit required, SECO had even more requirements and caught deficiencies the building department inspector missed.
#7. Resale. Could be considered a liability to a perspective buyer despite the benefits due to lack of knowledge. The loan is NOT recorded as a lien against the home. No idea why - but it is not! So if you sell it is your loan even though ours has a provision to be assumed if buyer agrees. A licensed real estate appraiser told us our home value would increase 9% with solar but that would not necessarily be true depending on the worth to a particular buyer. So selling could be sticky.
#8. You will still lose power in a power outage unless you add a battery backup system quoted price approximately $5000. Our system was $28K and for 2020 26% tax rebate so net cost of $20,720. 2021 credit is 19%. Last year of rebate.

My personal opinion is that we have all this beautiful Florida sunshine and even if we can save enough to break even with the financing it is worth it for the environmental benefits. IT IS AN INVESTMENT FOR OUR PLANET NOT OUR PORTFOLIO. Despite all the pitfalls we went through and the dissatisfaction of our contractor, in the end it was still worth it

Debbie Achtenberg

Debbie thank you for providing us with such valuable info. It's certainly informative as well as useful.

[tankman]

Bought a 2.7 Kw solar system with 16 panels in 2004. Total costs was $16,000. Got a $3000 rebate on my federal taxes. Florida had an incentive program at the time and paid me $4/watt, which equaled $10,800. Total cost to me out of pocket was only $2200. System generated about 4megawatts/year, or about $500/year savings. Payback was at 4 1/2 years. Been getting $500/year saving for over 10 years. The system had a permit, but to save money, I did most of the install on the roof myself. Had an electrician complete the hookup to the house panel.

Systems today are 3 times more powerful and 1/3 the cost of my system per watt. But because of no state program, I would not recommend putting solar panels on your home.

[Moderator]

The topic of this thread is the feasibility of solar panels. Please don't turn it into a debate about global warming or climate change.

Thank you.

Moderator

[tophcfa]

Originally Posted by bruce213

Our solar roof came on line November 2019, South facing side of our house. Our yearly 12 month energy bill before solar was $1,603.39. Our 12 month yearly bill after solar was $474.18. I went with a higher end 9.6kw system $19152.00 after rebate. So that gives me about a 17 years to a pay out. The solar company est a 13-14 pay back(with energy cost increases). My highest monthly bill was $70, the lowest $10.00. So you need to be on the younger side, concerned with the environment or hopefully both. If you decide to do it of course get several quotes and recommendations, and do lots of home work. Hope this helps if you want more info let me know.

Break even is longer if you consider the following. Over time the panels lose efficiency so your solar gain will decline. There is an opportunity cost involved, your initial $19,152 investment could be earning interest and capital gains. You will eventually need a new roof under the panels. Also, that is a system subsidized with a rebate, which is ultimately funded by taxpayers like you and me, which is another hidden cost.

[tophcfa]

Originally Posted by TedfromGA

Solar energy, renewable energy, and other technologies designed to be "green" need to be looked at carefully. Consistently, I see no mention of the natural resources required to manufacture the "green" product. Those solar panels are not produced without consuming natural resources. The inverters required to change the electricity into usable electricity for the home are full of electronic parts, etc.

In my view any discussion about using renewable energy: Solar, Wind, Water, etc. need to include the cost of manufacture in terms of natural resources consumed to make the product and install the product.

When the WHOLE picture is understood one will discover the net use of natural resources exceeds the net gain to make and use a "green" source of energy.

You are so correct, and the argument is even stronger for electric vehicles. The carbon footprint required mining the materials for the batteries is very significant, not to mention the toxic wast left behind when the batteries useful life expires.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

what the regulators of the state giveth, they can takenth away as well.

Hawaii at one point had to shut down net metering because of the system instability

ie, the power company is bankrupt, net metering goes away

[jpearson]

You are correct that the installation must be complete by December 31, 2021, to receive the current 22% Tax Credit. My opinion is that President-Elect Biden will support legislation to either extend this credit or support entirely new legislation to provide incentives for solar. Time will tell. You also must be the original owner of the solar system.
I have installed two separate but compatible systems on my home. Each qualified for the 30% credit. The first was completed in 2014, and the second one in 2019. Why did we install a second system? The answer is based on the consumption side of the equation. In 2018, we bought an electric car, and in early 2019, switched from a gas cart to an electric cart. We also bought a hot tub in 2017, so our consumption increased beyond the capacity of the original. Our two together now are a perfect compromise between consumption and production.


We bought both systems outright. Our decision was based on our personal finances. We don't like to borrow money. We call it "buy once..........cry once". As for the selling, we have not had to worry about that yet. In my opinion, the right buyer will love them, and most buyers won't have a clue what they are or what they entail. A good realtor that understands solar would be crucial. I won't hire any realtors that don't pass this test with me. They have to be able to sell the concept to the buyers. I think the right buyer will see some value in them, but most likely won't pay a large premium for them. It would take a very unique buyer to think their value was above and beyond the market value of the home. Again........my opinion. I would think a 30K investment would pay back a small percentage at sell time. The only great reason not to like them as a buyer would be the expected life remaining. If they are near the end of life, there would be little benefit to gain, and expenses to either remove or replace. Most buyers would beware of that. The other thing a buyer would shy away from is if a roof replacement is in the near future for the home. Our home is in that situation now. The roof is 17 years old, so I would think most buyers would worry about not only a roof replacement, but the cost of removing and replacing the panels for the roof job. Yes, they have to be removed when this happens. The homeowner would bear the cost of this. I am guessing the removal/replacement to be significant.

First off, I should mention that if you don't find "intrinsic value" in a green solution, you are not in the right gig. You must seek the value that comes with every day of sunshine. It has no money value, but the intrinsic value is dynamic......" if you are this kind of thinker." My wife and I fit that category. I never once thought it was a great financial decision, but instead, it was a decision that meets our environmental goals and was possibly a break-even financial deal over time.
I am a data geek...........having said that, I read my meter every day, save the data on a spreadsheet and calculate all kinds of trends, etc. that most could care less about. I have a real handle on what these are producing, what we are consuming, what each type of day will produce, what each time of year will produce. The production does follow long term patterns and produces predictable long term averages. The month by month graph is predictable, while the day to day graphs are quite variable.
When we bought our first system, it was predicted that we would average 33KwH per day average production. That number is extremely close. In fact, the first two years averaged right on that number. Basically 1000 per month, and 12000 per year. So, the expectations have been consistent with reality.
Here is an example from my SECO bill.
Dates 11/9-12/8/2020 29 Days *1.00/day = $29.00 (Just to be on the grid)
KwH Consumed 683 * .1106/KwH = $75.54
Total Electric Cost = $104.54
KwH Delivered 570 *- .095/KwH = $-54.15 (This is a credit.hence the negative)
Hot Bucks. We get credit for what we consume and pay for what we deliver.
The net was a credit of -$3.19
Add some tax. and the bill came to about $48 bucks. In the summer it might rise to 80 in August.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, why is there consumption? This is because we use the grid any time we are not producing what we are consuming. Night time is the main reason.
So, why did we deliver back the utility? This is because between 10 and 2, you over produce almost every day. It can be stored locally with batteries, or in our case sold back to the utility. We buy at 11.6 pennies per kWh and sell back at 9.5 pennies per kWh. A great deal of our consumption during the day is washed out by production. We actually consumed about 1400 kWh during those 29 days. Using the rate structure of Seco, our bill would have been ...
29$ + 1000*.1106 = $110.60 + 400* .1306 = $52.24 + (Hot Bucks Credit -27.87)
Basically $164
$164-$48 = $116 saved. So we average a bit higher than this during typical month savings.......say $125. This is $1500 per year. Ten years is $15,000. Twenty years is $30,000. Our out of pocket is close to $25k after tax credits. So, in our case it looks like the true payback, assuming rates/consumption/production remain constant would be about 17 years.


Our first array was true south. This is the most efficient during the year. Our second array is on the front of our house. Half of the panels face east, and the other face south. East beats south a few months of the year, but south beats east most months.


I would not ever put these on a mid to old age roof. You will have to replace your roof and with that comes an expense to remove and replace.
Buy the system with micro-inverters like Enphase, and do not get a string inverter. The strings work great if you have no shadowing during the day. The micros in my opinion are much slicker and easier to troubleshoot if you have a problem. PS-I love Enphase!
Choose a company that is efficient and diligent. Permits are pulled and need to be inspected as the job goes forward. I believe there are three inspections. Be sure that the company understands the connection agreement between you and SECO. This was a pain for us. You are not legally allowed to turn on the system until all inspections are done and SECO has signed off on the agreement. The final step is their inspection and meter swap. This took us almost a month after our install to get SECO to cooperate with the completion.
Another thing to consider is maintenance. Expect someone to have to clean the panels a couple of times per year. I do this myself....Once during pollen season and one after the pollen season. The rainy season is no problem and winter is no problem. You cannot believe how much pollen collects on them, and what that does to production. You might have this worked into the contract to have them do this???? If you hate roofs, the job is not for you.

Conclusion......
So, my wife and I were perfect solar candidates. We were young enough to have a good chance to outlive them, could afford to pay outright, and love environmental projects. It may not be for you. I am glad I did it and would do it again. I hope to outlive these systems. Hah!

[Troy8432]

Thank you all very much for the information and practical experience regarding solar. The net metering info was quite enlightening. For those interested, I discovered yesterday that the recent $900 billion COVID relief bill extended the 26% federal tax incentive in 2020, through 2022.

At the very least, the tax incentive extension coupled with potentially lower up front costs over the next couple of years, I have more time to evaluate.

Feel free to keep on responding. The more we know, the better.

[Win1894]

Don't do it. Total waste of time and money. There are many things the promoters of solar heat don't tell you:
1. Payback is never what they say it is
2. Rarely generate the amount of electricity thay say.
3. They lose (degrade) about 1 to 2% of their already low erfficiency every year - That's just the physics of the photovoltaic cell.
4. You lose cells and panels more often than they tell you.
5. Unless your roof is brand new, you will have to remove the panels to reroof, and these panels are subject to wind, hail, and hurricane damage.
6. Virtually all the panels are made in China, the nation whose government brought Covid19 to the rest of the world.
7. What are you going to do with the panels when they stop working after their useful life of 20 to 25 years? There are virtually no recycling centers to recover the rare-earth metals used to produce photovoltaic cells - very environmentally unfriendly in that regard. Also consider the strip mining used to harvest the rare-earth metals used in their construction.
8. And the last dirty little secret - Feel a panel in broad daylight. They are very hot! They directly heat the atmosphere adding to global warming.
Conclusion: Free energy from the sun sound like a great thing. As a physicist with experience in this area I can assure you that it isn't. It's a variable and diffuse energy source. No matter how you look at it, solar panels are a bad investment.