[Luggage]

The question was not about helping the planet but whether they would save money. I've looked at it for the last 20 plus years and the answer is simply is no you won't save money based on the average interest rates you can get at the bank. For most years when you could get three four or five percent, that $20,000 was pretty much making up the difference in electricity costs for the interest and you still had 20,000 in the bank. You'd have to ask a real estate agent if it's an incentive or distraction to have solar power on a roof especially in Florida where we're supposed to change our Roofs more often. I would hazard a guess with 95% certainty that it's a detriment to most people unless you're getting the solar system totally free on a new house. There are other things you can do to save money like double and triple pane glass and extra insulation in the Attic with attic fans. If you're happy with your solar that's wonderful . I am in Leesburg and keep in mind there is always a service charge minimum to be connected. If and when the state decides that the electric companies must credit you the same retail prices or that they will give additional monies , then it might be worth it. Now I know that the solar panels have gone down in price it almost every year but they still know where anywhere they should be to be cost effective even in sunny Florida

[joeharing]

If you're a semior NO.
Roof leaks. Cost more than double if you ever need new roof. When there are problems your original solar contractor will probably be out of business.

[midiwiz]

Originally Posted by Juliewaters

Hello-
We are fairly new to the Villages and are thinking about installing solar panels on our roof.
We want to know if it is worth it….monetarily.
We really want to know how much you save on your monthly electric bill here in the villages and what the total cost was to install.

Thanks very much

you could do as everyone has said and rely on the solar contractor but I can tell you after years of seeing this done over on the coast that those are sales numbers and not reality.

One thing no one factors in is the wear effects on the roof. Depending on what solar product is installed it does have an effect not only on your shingles, but it can also have an effect on your roof structure.

We had a family apply for a large installation about 5 years ago, nice panels, would cover the entire west side of their house. The install was almost $40k and the monthly bill have Florida Power & Light paying them roughly $240 per month - "when FPL did not require use of the power" net result - over 3 years they received credits not payments of under $1000 total. In the mean time when Irma hit - let's just say those panels are no longer there and the subdivision wasn't even in the path.

Also the black ones that lay on the shingles aren't so hot either - wait until they have to replace the roof..... not fun.

that's all I have - it's really your decision, I just thought I'd share some experiences.

[Fastskiguy]

Electricity here is, what, 12 cents/kwh? Solar can't compete with that on a $$ basis.

However, you might have other motivation. To burn less coal....to be self sufficient....to be able to act all morally superior and snooty to your fossil fuel burning liberal friends (LOL, just kidding).

It would be pretty cool to generate all of the power for your household and most of your transportation with solar panels on your roof, gotta admit, that would be neat.

Joe

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Originally Posted by retiredguy123

I think it is more appropriate to use the time value of money percentage of a diversified portfolio of stocks, bonds, and cash, which is closer to 6 percent, not 1.5 percent. The risk level of the time value calculation should be equal to the risk level of the solar system investment, which is by no means a guaranteed investment.

Treasury interest rates are guaranteed to return interest and principal from when you buy them, whether bought at issuance or in the secondary market. US Treasuries are used as a risk free rate. so when you compare investments, you start with the risk free rate, then you apply the investment risk rate. . . or the discount rate. . . . I always used 10% over the risk free rate for valuing companies when I was performing valuation analysis for buying and selling companies. . . use 15 percent over risk free for highly risky companies. Other people use the funding rate, which is the net return across all funding sources, in companies, debt rate + return on equity (subjective) Home owners don't have the return on equity, but has a return on investments. . .

So, retired guy is using his funding source total, which may lead to an incorrect financial model answer. Why? because if he uses only cash to buy the system and doesn't sell some of the investments in the same proportion, he is not matching the actual funding source return to the investment. If retired guy uses only cash for his funding source to spend for the expense of the solar panels, then his comparison is the return rate for cash only, which matching maturities, will be starting with the risk free rate of the shortest duration treasury bills to estimate the savings over the current use of cash.

Once a break even is estimated, then one can decide the funding source cost. and the model will be wrong, because the future is uncertain, always uncertain, and you won't get all the uncertainties exactly correct, in both future timing and future impact, size of change

For the investment return, the factors are the amount of sunshine to the kHr created, the house rate usage at the same time, and the wholesale and retail rates for sell back and usage from the "back up" system, or SECO, and the risk is roof issues and incremental costs for new roofs given that insurance companies are giving roofs much shorter useful lives. . Also if SECO has different usage rates for the time of day, which some of the northern systems are implementing due to solar generation, then you will have to adjust net daytime usage rates versus nightime usage rates. . .

The risk is future weather, and wholesale and retail rates. The higher the retail rates, without adjusting for anything else, the shorter the payoff period. The rates are set by the Florida utility regulator, which has to balance the guaranteed rate of return to the utility company, by federal statute, and the investments required to maintain, improve and protect the grid in Florida from expected future requirements and risks, including weather and green opportunities and investments for efficiencies.

Put that all into the financial blender, and if you don't get a break even longer than your life expectancy, then you are being greenwashed by the marketing department to sell you their products. . .

Part of capitalism is to create products to solve problems, the second part is to monetize that creativity by selling the product. . . some small problem solutions don't scale and some eventually cost more in the long run than what appears in the marketing fluff. . .

Yes, I work at an electric and gas utility, and in the old world, rural areas, the solar system installations are breaking all the 50 year old electrical grid components, which is driving up the rate of distribution grid electricity for the cost of maintaining and upgrading the distribution system, which is distinctly different than the generation system and costs. You will always have to pay for the distribution system of the "back up" system called SECO today, as long as you have a meter. .

good luck, but its a no for me at the moment when the cost of electricity is currently so low, as the costs are too high for roof units, but at the same time, its a great time to make the investment expecting the cost of electricity to go up tremendously with the green movement, as can be seen in Europe cost of energy at the moment. A better way is to invest in the company stocks which generate solar energy which has efficiencies of scale, than do it yourself, which has no efficiencies of scale.

finance guy

[retiredguy123]

Originally Posted by CoachKandSportsguy

Treasury interest rates are guaranteed to return interest and principal from when you buy them, whether bought at issuance or in the secondary market. US Treasuries are used as a risk free rate. so when you compare investments, you start with the risk free rate, then you apply the investment risk rate. . . or the discount rate. . . . I always used 10% over the risk free rate for valuing companies when I was performing valuation analysis for buying and selling companies. . . use 15 percent over risk free for highly risky companies. Other people use the funding rate, which is the net return across all funding sources, in companies, debt rate + return on equity (subjective) Home owners don't have the return on equity, but has a return on investments. . .

So, retired guy is using his funding source total, which may lead to an incorrect financial model answer. Why? because if he uses only cash to buy the system and doesn't sell some of the investments in the same proportion, he is not matching the actual funding source return to the investment. If retired guy uses only cash for his funding source to spend for the expense of the solar panels, then his comparison is the return rate for cash only, which matching maturities, will be starting with the risk free rate of the shortest duration treasury bills to estimate the savings over the current use of cash.

Once a break even is estimated, then one can decide the funding source cost. and the model will be wrong, because the future is uncertain, always uncertain, and you won't get all the uncertainties exactly correct, in both future timing and future impact, size of change

For the investment return, the factors are the amount of sunshine to the kHr created, the house rate usage at the same time, and the wholesale and retail rates for sell back and usage from the "back up" system, or SECO, and the risk is roof issues and incremental costs for new roofs given that insurance companies are giving roofs much shorter useful lives. . Also if SECO has different usage rates for the time of day, which some of the northern systems are implementing due to solar generation, then you will have to adjust net daytime usage rates versus nightime usage rates. . .

The risk is future weather, and wholesale and retail rates. The higher the retail rates, without adjusting for anything else, the shorter the payoff period. The rates are set by the Florida utility regulator, which has to balance the guaranteed rate of return to the utility company, by federal statute, and the investments required to maintain, improve and protect the grid in Florida from expected future requirements and risks, including weather and green opportunities and investments for efficiencies.

Put that all into the financial blender, and if you don't get a break even longer than your life expectancy, then you are being greenwashed by the marketing department to sell you their products. . .

Part of capitalism is to create products to solve problems, the second part is to monetize that creativity by selling the product. . . some small problem solutions don't scale and some eventually cost more in the long run than what appears in the marketing fluff. . .

Yes, I work at an electric and gas utility, and in the old world, rural areas, the solar system installations are breaking all the 50 year old electrical grid components, which is driving up the rate of distribution grid electricity for the cost of maintaining and upgrading the distribution system, which is distinctly different than the generation system and costs. You will always have to pay for the distribution system of the "back up" system called SECO today, as long as you have a meter. .

good luck, but its a no for me at the moment when the cost of electricity is currently so low, as the costs are too high for roof units, but at the same time, its a great time to make the investment expecting the cost of electricity to go up tremendously with the green movement, as can be seen in Europe cost of energy at the moment. A better way is to invest in the company stocks which generate solar energy which has efficiencies of scale, than do it yourself, which has no efficiencies of scale.

finance guy

Interesting. I agree with most your points, but I tend to compare all long term investments to my overall portfolio return, which has averaged been between 6 and 7 percent over decades, and I rebalance it periodically as needed. The big unknown is the risk of purchasing a solar system as a financial investment. You can't compare it to a risk free investment. To me, the most significant negative to the solar systems being sold in The Villages is that you need to install the panels on a roof that only has a life span of 15 years when it is new. Installing panels on a used roof makes even less sense. Also, I don't think that a solar system will increase the value of your house, which seems to be a selling point for solar contractors, and they totally ignore the time value of money in their sales pitch.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

You can't compare it to a risk free investment.

Sure you can, if cash is your funding source, which is cash and the cash return. . .
Because there is no income from solar investment, there is only cost savings. . . very different type of return analysis. .

the question is if the cost savings is high enough from the cash investment to add it to your long term portfolio which is 6-7% of income. I would not expect you to sell income producing assets of 5-7% to fund a cost savings of 0.5 %, does not make sense.

But you are correct in that solar panels are a long term investments, and therefore should reflect some sort of long term cost savings or income, since it doesn't over the small roof area, generate enough to produce income at the moment. .

[FormerIowaGuy]

Originally Posted by Juliewaters

Hello-
We are fairly new to the Villages and are thinking about installing solar panels on our roof.
We want to know if it is worth it….monetarily.
We really want to know how much you save on your monthly electric bill here in the villages and what the total cost was to install.

Thanks very much

I keep hearing solar batteries for cars are improving rapidly. I was wondering if this improvement is also happening with solar panels for houses?

[Mulliganguy]

Originally Posted by Juliewaters

Hello-
We are fairly new to the Villages and are thinking about installing solar panels on our roof.
We want to know if it is worth it….monetarily.
We really want to know how much you save on your monthly electric bill here in the villages and what the total cost was to install.

Thanks very much

Be sure to talk to various companies before signing an agreement to buy. We didn’t and now we have payments along with electric bill. They sold us enough panels to make the presentation look like no brainer but after all was said and done not enough to cover our entire monthly electric expenses. Beware!! They got the Gold mine and we got the shaft as the song goes.

[GrumpyOldMan]

So many of these posts assume you pay cash for the solar installation instead of investing that cash in something that provides interest. Not everyone pays cash.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally Posted by FormerIowaGuy

I keep hearing solar batteries for cars are improving rapidly. I was wondering if this improvement is also happening with solar panels for houses?

In the case of Tesla, yes, since Tesla also has a company selling solar panel roofing tiles (looks like tiles, not panels) They also sell a power bank of batteries for your home that are charged by the solar tiles during the day and runs the house on cloudy days and nights. Those batteries are benefiting from Teslas' advancement of battery technology.

They also are implementing massive battery farms to level load power grids, one of the first in Australia (This is NOT solar-powered, but is a massive battery farm.)

"By the end of 2018, it was estimated that the Power Reserve had saved A$40 million in costs, mostly in eliminating the need for a fuel-powered 35 MW Frequency Control Ancillary Service.[39] In 2019, grid costs were reduced by $116 million due to the operation of HPR.[40] Almost all of the savings delivered by the Hornsdale battery came from its role in the frequency and ancillary control markets, where HPR put downward pressure on total prices."

Hornsdale Power Reserve - Wikipedia

[Spsmith444]

Ask solar contractor? What? That is like asking the Big Bad Wolf is a straw house wind resistant. Only way solar panels makes a good investment is if your totally off the grid and no other form of electricity is available. My electric bill is very reasonable n TV.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally Posted by CoachKandSportsguy

Sure you can, if cash is your funding source, which is cash and the cash return. . .
Because there is no income from solar investment, there is only cost savings. . . very different type of return analysis. .

the question is if the cost savings is high enough from the cash investment to add it to your long term portfolio which is 6-7% of income. I would not expect you to sell income producing assets of 5-7% to fund a cost savings of 0.5 %, does not make sense.

But you are correct in that solar panels are a long term investments, and therefore should reflect some sort of long term cost savings or income, since it doesn't over the small roof area, generate enough to produce income at the moment. .

Correction, there is limited income from solar on roof tops.

[DIver0258]

Originally Posted by Juliewaters

Hello-
We are fairly new to the Villages and are thinking about installing solar panels on our roof.
We want to know if it is worth it….monetarily.
We really want to know how much you save on your monthly electric bill here in the villages and what the total cost was to install.

Thanks very much

We just had several quotes done. We also had an evaluation done by SECO. SECO has great information about solar on their website. Depending on what your ultimate goal is, will determine price. For us to have a zero bill and independent power in the event of an outage. Having solar didn’t make dollars and cents for US.

It is is tough to sift through, educate yourselves about solar prior to speaking with the first contractor.

Have your tax professional explain the federal tax incentives to you how they work and what it takes to qualify. The contractors continually uptalk the tax break.

[SHIBUMI]

Solar Panels don't work? Each panel is only 10% at best, efficient, that's why you need so many, the power companies won't pay you back at 100% more like 15%, why this ruse has duped so many people is amazing. No cost benefit here, if they only worked maybe there would be.