[VICAR OF DIBLEY]

We’d been told when we first were dealing with this issue that nothing would come of our efforts, and that has turned out to be exactly the case. But we learned....

We learned that the final authority in the auto industry structure is the dealership! They are the ultimate boss over Toyota Corporate (Texas) and even Toyota Motor Company (Tokyo). The dealership is the ‘business partner’ in that they generate the income. Thus, there appears to be an understanding that the dealership can do whatever it wants, the bottom line of which is exactly that—the bottom line—make money no matter how it affects buyers—and put nothing in writing. Thus, no one in Toyota’s company structure can tell the dealership what to do—and certainly none of the organizations who are in place to support consumers have the power and authority to tell the dealership what to do.

Toyota generally makes a fine product; for decades we have driven Toyotas, as have our children and grandchildren for whom we’ve bought cars. We ourselves have had nothing but great buying experiences with Toyotas, including the two we bought at Phillips. Clearly foolish of us to think that in this rare instance that we had a Toyota with an intermittent problem that the dealership's service dept couldn't fix that the dealership would stand behind their product. There is absolutely no doubt that we were told—by general manager, service manager, salesman—and told multiple times—we’d be given a replacement car with the same safety features as we had already paid for. We took their word for it: definitely foolish on our part. ‘Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me!’ A ‘next time’ will never happen!

Why 2-0? Because they sold two vehicles that they would not do if it weren't profitable—the replacement to us which they viewed as a new car sale—and our original vehicle which they put up for sale in their used car division with zero info about the intermittent electrical problem in the CarFax report. So we now have a perfectly running 2018 RAV4 that we expect not to keep for long as it lacks the safety features we had already paid for and which we bought specifically for those safety features. When the new owner finds a dead battery for no reason, she or he won't know that it's not a new problem, rather they bought a used car loaded with safety features and low mileage—but also an intermittent electrical problem!

Many local Toyota owners can say that they had good buying experiences at Phillips. We ourselves said it about Phillips in 2012, when we bought our third Prius (the first two when we still lived up north) and the RAV4 in 2016. But as uncommon as problems are, they still can happen—and it was our bad luck to be the ones who had it happen to. We wouldn’t think that there are frequent problems with Toyotas, but what we now do know for sure—and are widely sharing our feelings about—is that at those infrequent times when there are problems, be prepared to be hung out like the laundry if in any way it could affect their bottom line. Up north we dealt with a Toyota dealership for many decades and where we knew that a handshake was as good as a contract. We take responsibility for trusting what we were verbally told many times by several Phillips staff. We are two old people who have been buying cars for decades who never before felt victimized—until now with Phillips Toyota.

[Wiotte]

Originally Posted by VICAR OF DIBLEY

We’d been told when we first were dealing with this issue that nothing would come of our efforts, and that has turned out to be exactly the case. But we learned....



We learned that the final authority in the auto industry structure is the dealership! They are the ultimate boss over Toyota Corporate (Texas) and even Toyota Motor Company (Tokyo). The dealership is the ‘business partner’ in that they generate the income. Thus, there appears to be an understanding that the dealership can do whatever it wants, the bottom line of which is exactly that—the bottom line—make money no matter how it affects buyers—and put nothing in writing. Thus, no one in Toyota’s company structure can tell the dealership what to do—and certainly none of the organizations who are in place to support consumers have the power and authority to tell the dealership what to do.



Toyota generally makes a fine product; for decades we have driven Toyotas, as have our children and grandchildren for whom we’ve bought cars. We ourselves have had nothing but great buying experiences with Toyotas, including the two we bought at Phillips. Clearly foolish of us to think that in this rare instance that we had a Toyota with an intermittent problem that the dealership's service dept couldn't fix that the dealership would stand behind their product. There is absolutely no doubt that we were told—by general manager, service manager, salesman—and told multiple times—we’d be given a replacement car with the same safety features as we had already paid for. We took their word for it: definitely foolish on our part. ‘Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me!’ A ‘next time’ will never happen!



Why 2-0? Because they sold two vehicles that they would not do if it weren't profitable—the replacement to us which they viewed as a new car sale—and our original vehicle which they put up for sale in their used car division with zero info about the intermittent electrical problem in the CarFax report. So we now have a perfectly running 2018 RAV4 that we expect not to keep for long as it lacks the safety features we had already paid for and which we bought specifically for those safety features. When the new owner finds a dead battery for no reason, she or he won't know that it's not a new problem, rather they bought a used car loaded with safety features and low mileage—but also an intermittent electrical problem!



Many local Toyota owners can say that they had good buying experiences at Phillips. We ourselves said it about Phillips in 2012, when we bought our third Prius (the first two when we still lived up north) and the RAV4 in 2016. But as uncommon as problems are, they still can happen—and it was our bad luck to be the ones who had it happen to. We wouldn’t think that there are frequent problems with Toyotas, but what we now do know for sure—and are widely sharing our feelings about—is that at those infrequent times when there are problems, be prepared to be hung out like the laundry if in any way it could affect their bottom line. Up north we dealt with a Toyota dealership for many decades and where we knew that a handshake was as good as a contract. We take responsibility for trusting what we were verbally told many times by several Phillips staff. We are two old people who have been buying cars for decades who never before felt victimized—until now with Phillips Toyota.

I hope you have removed the license plate frame they installed. I’ve never seen so many frames in one place advertising the same 3 dealers as seen in TV. First thing I tell a dealer is NO dealer decals on my vehicle but a frame is ok which I take off immediately as soon as I get home.


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[billybye]

[QUOTE=Wiotte;1538081]I hope you have removed the license plate frame they installed. I’ve never seen so many frames in one place advertising the same 3 dealers as seen in TV. First thing I tell a dealer is NO dealer decals on my vehicle but a frame is ok which I take off immediately as soon as I get home.


ditto

[Bogie Shooter]

Should Carfax be notified?

[Abby10]

Originally Posted by Wiotte

I hope you have removed the license plate frame they installed. I’ve never seen so many frames in one place advertising the same 3 dealers as seen in TV. First thing I tell a dealer is NO dealer decals on my vehicle but a frame is ok which I take off immediately as soon as I get home.


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Wow......I thought it was only my husband that does that.

But to the OP - we too have been an exclusive Toyota family for the past 35 years and have had only one major issue, ironically with our first vehicle, which was rectified. But I appreciate knowing about your situation and will take it into consideration especially when we move to TV and are looking for a new or newer car - so, thank you!

Secondly, I'm intrigued by your electrical problem in the RAV4. Friends of ours (up north) just bought a brand new Honda CRV and are having similar problems. They have been stranded at least once, if not twice, with a breakdown having to do with their electrical system as well. Hearing your story makes me want to touch base with them again to see how it is being handled by Honda and if they have figured out what the exact problem is.

This seems to be highly unusual for both Toyota and Honda, but one wonders if there is a common factor here.

[Chatbrat]

It could be something as simple as a software tweek, for the charging system-when I got my Benz, i had a similar problem--took the tech several tries to remedy it--car would go completely dead and with an electronic shifter , the car is locked in park until voltage is applied

Also, check a fuse in the engine compartment marked "DOME"--remove it and see if the parasitic drain disappears--this is for the RAV4

[John_W]

How often we hear about reviews of restaurants and landscapers and everything else around TV. Same goes with car dealers, recently I was interested in a new Toyota Camry or a new Hyundai Kona. I noticed on Google reviews and dealerrater, it seemed almost every car dealer had 4 or 5 stars. Then I checked out yelp.com and it was the complete opposite. Almost every dealer had only 1 or 2 stars until I saw the Hyundai and Toyota dealers in Clermont had very good ratings.

I then went to Jenkins Hyundai in Leesburg since it was closer just to get a look a the new Kona. We discussed price and as it turned out, it would of been $3272 and my trade-in for a new Kona. Then I went to Hyundai of Central Florida in Clermont, first off they had 33 Kona's to choose from, 3 times more than Jenkins in Leesburg. Next came the price, no dealer fees, no dealer options, they even included the floor mats in the price. Total price out the door was $426 and my trade-in. Working with George Spencer there was the best car deal I've ever had, you can see the car in my Avatar.

[Indy-Guy]

In reading your post I have several questions which I feel were left out of the story and would perhaps complete the whole story.

Was the defective car you purchased a new car or used car and what year? If it was a new car why was it not covered by the Florida Lemon Law? If it was a used car what year was it and how many miles were on the car at the time of purchase and how many miles were on it at the time of return for a new car also what was the time frame between purchase and return?

You refer to the new car you now have as the replacement car. Did you trade the defective car in on the new car or was it in fact replaced by Philips Toyota. To me trading it in would mean that you payed a difference amount where a replacement would mean that you did not pay a difference amount and the car was replaced at no cost to you.

The site for information on the Florida Lemon Law is. Florida Lemon Laws | DMV.ORG

[Dan9871]

Originally Posted by Indy-Guy

In reading your post I have several questions which I feel were left out of the story and would perhaps complete the whole story.

[/url]

This issue of this dealer selling a car that was replaced has been brought up before. You will have to go through most of the thread but the details you are looking for are in:

Buyer beware phillips toyota, leesburg, fl

You will have to do through most of it but the answers you are looking for are in it.

[Wiotte]

Originally Posted by John_W

How often we hear about reviews of restaurants and landscapers and everything else around TV. Same goes with car dealers, recently I was interested in a new Toyota Camry or a new Hyundai Kona. I noticed on Google reviews and dealerrater, it seemed almost every car dealer had 4 or 5 stars. Then I checked out yelp.com and it was the complete opposite. Almost every dealer had only 1 or 2 stars until I saw the Hyundai and Toyota dealers in Clermont had very good ratings.



I then went to Jenkins Hyundai in Leesburg since it was closer just to get a look a the new Kona. We discussed price and as it turned out, it would of been $3272 and my trade-in for a new Kona. Then I went to Hyundai of Central Florida in Clermont, first off they had 33 Kona's to choose from, 3 times more than Jenkins in Leesburg. Next came the price, no dealer fees, no dealer options, they even included the floor mats in the price. Total price out the door was $426 and my trade-in. Working with George Spencer there was the best car deal I've ever had, you can see the car in my Avatar.

If you had kept traveling further SE on SR27 the Orlando dealers have an even larger inventory. After being “played” by the local dealers (I have enormous patience) we figured we city slickers should shop in the “big city”. Sure enough, tough talk in the big city yields the best price.


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[VICAR OF DIBLEY]

Originally Posted by Abby10

Wow......I thought it was only my husband that does that.

But to the OP - we too have been an exclusive Toyota family for the past 35 years and have had only one major issue, ironically with our first vehicle, which was rectified. But I appreciate knowing about your situation and will take it into consideration especially when we move to TV and are looking for a new or newer car - so, thank you!

Secondly, I'm intrigued by your electrical problem in the RAV4. Friends of ours (up north) just bought a brand new Honda CRV and are having similar problems. They have been stranded at least once, if not twice, with a breakdown having to do with their electrical system as well. Hearing your story makes me want to touch base with them again to see how it is being handled by Honda and if they have figured out what the exact problem is.

This seems to be highly unusual for both Toyota and Honda, but one wonders if there is a common factor here.

I would guess that the only possibility of this being a common issue for Toyotas and Hondays would be if both companies used the same parts manufacturer, where the same part is used by both manufacturers. Other than this very remote possibility, I feel that we're talking about two cars with an electrical defect that is not typical of either manufacturer but obviously can happen.

Originally Posted by Indy-Guy

In reading your post I have several questions which I feel were left out of the story and would perhaps complete the whole story.

Was the defective car you purchased a new car or used car and what year? If it was a new car why was it not covered by the Florida Lemon Law? If it was a used car what year was it and how many miles were on the car at the time of purchase and how many miles were on it at the time of return for a new car also what was the time frame between purchase and return?

You refer to the new car you now have as the replacement car. Did you trade the defective car in on the new car or was it in fact replaced by Philips Toyota. To me trading it in would mean that you payed a difference amount where a replacement would mean that you did not pay a difference amount and the car was replaced at no cost to you.

The site for information on the Florida Lemon Law is. Florida Lemon Laws | DMV.ORG

We bought the defective car—a 2016 RAV4 Limited Hybrid—brand new from Phillips Toyota in a very pleasant transaction. It had one electrical 'problem' from day 1: the panel lights didn't come on. We didn't realize that there even were panel lights, as the car was delivered to us with that switch off and no mention of it. The service manager made every effort to assist us in terms of adding an auxiliary light above the gauges to plug into the power plug when needed. But he didn't even know that there is a switch, that all he had to do was turn the switch on! That doesn't inspire confidence....

It didn't reach the point of Lemon Law; that involves three efforts on the part of the dealership to fix it and were unable. They took the car for one week to see if the problem would happen again, and it did not in one week. I pointed out that it took three months from the first to the second dead battery, and then it happened several more times. This is our only car, in which we had lost confidence after being stranded several times. Out of desperation we accepted the lesser car after being told that the camera was the only feature missing. This was not true, and they had to know it since we bought the car from them!

We viewed it as a replacement car and were told many times by three different Phillips personnel that it would have the same features as the problem car. If we had accepted a 2017 RAV4 Limited, there would have been no money changing hands. We opted for a 2018 model and paid a difference of $2,000. We didn't hesitate to pay this, as we were still expecting what we'd been told: a car with the same features as on our 2016 other than the hybrid system. Again it was our mistake to continue accepting what the dealership was offering when they put nothing in writing, so there is no way to 'prove' what was said. But it's obvious that replacing a defective car would be acceptable only if it had, as they said, the same features as what we already paid for in 2016. With the original car still under warranty, why would anyone consider agreeing to not the same car? From a decency point of view it just doesn't make sense....

[Wiotte]

I think it’s time to move on. Fact is all car dealers suck. Been that way since forever. Trust no one check everything.


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[Henryk]

Originally Posted by VICAR OF DIBLEY

We’d been told when we first were dealing with this issue that nothing would come of our efforts, and that has turned out to be exactly the case. But we learned....

I hope you checked out the "Lemon Laws." There's also Yelp and BBB.

[jpvillager]

Rather than going farther South I went North. Rochester NY.

[Nucky]

Originally Posted by jpvillager

Rather than going farther South I went North. Rochester NY.

I'm thinking the same thing. Incorporate a visit with the grandchildren and scoop up new wheels at the dealer I've been with for a lifetime. They pay for my oil changes in Florida. I just Email them the receipt.

I did find several dealers here that seem very good. Village Ford's Service is Unbelievably Fantastic. John W. pointed out several dealers I will check before doing the N.J. thing. It's mostly about $$ The Benjamin's. $$